An alternative to cadillac

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miata
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by miata »

kwanjangnihm wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:49 am
miata wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:52 pm
I would really like someone who has a solid engine package already speced out with known results.
I would start with Dave from WaterThunder! He has tons of knowledge & experience.

http://www.waterthunder.com/
I'll call him, but he looks exclusive to small block builds.

These are tools. I can't have a strung out small block. I don't think.

After calling around a bit, its going to be tough to beat these cadillacs.

Junkyard block and crank
Heads - so I can get away from crack issues
Solid single shaft valvetrain, hydro
Appropriate cam
Simple rebuild

It is a pretty cheap 500 ft/lbs
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OneBFC
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by OneBFC »

Its only 285hp if you need 500lbft @ 3000 rpm.

Pretty no brainer for any modern LS to produce 285hp.
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,85+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy
miata
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by miata »

OneBFC wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:24 pm
Its only 285hp if you need 500lbft @ 3000 rpm.

Pretty no brainer for any modern LS to produce 285hp.
Russ,
Where can I find this info?
I have not seen any numbers even similar to that at that low rpm.

Where did you get this 285/500 number?

I have never seen an LS make power like that at 3k.
hdsadey
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by hdsadey »

This is how BFC is coming up with those numbers. Simple equation.

https://spicerparts.com/calculators/hor ... calculator
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by hdsadey »

Caddys are a great platform but the were only produced from 1970 to 1976 in the 500 cubic inch version. 6 years they're getting really hard to find in rebuildable condition. If you're dead set on them we do know where 4 blocks are available locally to us.

This is one of the biggest reasons I suggested the 385 series Ford. Production ran from 1970 to 1994 25 years of production makes it easier to find donors.
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
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OneBFC
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by OneBFC »

Just need to get past the desire to run DD. Use a gear box and run around 4000 rpm on a pretty normal LS setup and you will have no more problems with as much up time as you need.

The cost of a few gear boxes is going to be noise compared to lost time and the expense of harder and harder to find dinosaur engines.

You can also easily sell the gear boxes once you are done with them. Probably able to unload engine, box and prop actually when you wanted to. Total cost of ownership should be factored imo.

The big Fords may be viable too, I dont have experience with them.

Using the most common parts typically results in lowest total cost of ownership.
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,85+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy
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kwanjangnihm
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by kwanjangnihm »

Here are hard numbers for a DD LS.
Davie GSO480 wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:25 pm
I also had Dave build me a DD LS.

The motor is a LS3 block, EFI holley system, 430 CI, Chevrolet cnc heads.

Dave (Waterthunder) has a thrust tester, it will measure thrust output.....it makes 1100 pounds + At 3600 with the Alpha 66
He'll cut your throat, baby, stick you in the back, drive off in your Cadillac.
He's more trouble than you think, he'll kill your sugar, leave you in the drink.
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Slidin Gator
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by Slidin Gator »

Miata,
I'm gonna go against the grain and general consensus here and offer some food for thought.
miata wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:52 pm
I am just a bit beyond experimenting by now.
If you have a few projects that need a wind machine for testing on a limited basis, then I stand corrected and the previous advise on the LS platform with gear is a great solution (I'm building one myself). But, if you are looking to build long term, money making workhorses that blow poorly made impact windows and shingles back to China, then copying our lead on Hot Rod solutions will just be the start of your experimentation, starting with figuring out which oil diapers absorb the most oil from blown engines.

We build and run hot rods that regularly can and do make 200-600 Hp easily and produce the kind of wind figures you are looking for, but none of these solutions are going to last long very long putting out 300 Hp for 45 minute pulls, max power on these setups is measured in seconds and average power needs are well under 200 Hp.
miata wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:34 am
twin engines, these are workhorses. 3k rpm, full load for about 45 minutes at a time.
miata wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:42 am
High-speed wind testing

I use 2 of these 500's to blow through a flow straightener, creating what is basically an outdoor wind tunnel.

each test is about 40 minutes of full load @3k rpm

All weather conditions, freezing rain to 110°F summers.
You describe these as workhorses and you are obviously looking to make money providing a test platform. What is unsaid is your expectation for total yearly hours and your risk vs. reward tolerance for reliability and longevity.

In my opinion you are looking for industrial solutions rated for continuous duty (at least intermittent) industrial applications. Just look at the spec sheet that Heavy posted for that Ford 460, 175 Hp Continuous and 200 Hp Intermittent. Throwing a stroker crank into that engine (or other other hot rod solutions) and adding RPM to increase power are not going to improve longevity. With industrial engine ratings, Intermittent typically means 10 minutes for every hour of operation.

The two options I would be looking at are industrial rated engines (gas or diesel, your preference) factory rated for 300 Hp continuous with a gear/belt system to achieve the prop speed you need, or electric drives using commercial 3 phase power or diesel generators depending on power availability. A big advantage of an electric solution would be the ability to use 2 motors (50% of the power each) facing each other with 2 props counter rotating which would delete the need for the flow straightener and reduce total power consumption. Add in a VFD (variable frequency drive) and you would have the ability to vary prop speed remotely and log all kinds of performance parameters. Another advantage of electric drive would be significantly reduced upfront cost (capex) if you are on a budget to start out as you can rent the generators as needed making them billable at cost + per job.

It's all big stuff and requires semi's to haul around, I'm running 6x 300 kW (400 Hp) diesel gensets pushing a butt load of big electric motors on a job right now. They run 12 hours per day and I fully expect them to be running just fine next March when this job is complete and ready to move onto the next.

Good luck what ever route you decide to take.
I still think I-10 is the Mason Dixon line.
2013 Mike Stossel Boats, 13' x 7' deck over, IO-540, 74" NGQ less winglets.
miata
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by miata »

Electric has been considered. Power requirements are pretty astounding. I would need a power substation if I wanted more than 2 motors.

I have also had my current system computer analyzed (not cheap, but very cool) and I would need my flow straightener in any case. Its 17 feet tall and 40 ft wide and 6 feet thick. Its not going anywhere.


This is the second time it has been suggested that I use industrial equipment. Might need to dig deeper into that.
Last edited by miata on Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
miata
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by miata »

Slidin Gator wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:46 am
Miata,
I'm gonna go against the grain and general consensus here and offer some food

Good luck what ever route you decide to take.
Thank you for the detailed response.

I have also built a few engines. Mostly turbocharged 4 cylinders that I stuff with 25-30 psi of boost.

I've been using these 500s for a couple years now for my test platform. This was my first time messing with carbs and things like "vacuum advance" 😆 🤣 😂 and all of the problems that can pop up.


Fast forward to now, I can confidently build and maintain these big V8s. While learning about static loads and timing, I got real good at rebuilding. I think I can completely tear one down, rebuild with new components, in about 8 hrs, assuming no machine work.

Figuring out how to rebuild a quadrajet was an experience of its own.

Anyway, as soon as I have a few minutes, I'll make a more detailed description of what exactly I need these engines to do.

Buying parts with re-sale in mind, is furthest from my goal. I have been doing this for a couple years and my client base is growing. This won't be slowing down and seems to be growing pretty rapidly.
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kwanjangnihm
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by kwanjangnihm »

Miata can you upload a few photos of your setup, we are interested in seeing it. :salute:
He'll cut your throat, baby, stick you in the back, drive off in your Cadillac.
He's more trouble than you think, he'll kill your sugar, leave you in the drink.
miata
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by miata »

possibly.

If my partner doesn't see an issue, I will post some up. Its nothing too special, but its expensive and my market is pretty tight.
hdsadey
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by hdsadey »

It just occurred to me that an 8.1 Vortec might fit your bill. Big cubic inch displacement, built for towing applications, factory fuel injection, throttle by wire throttle body, timing computer set with reluctor wheel on crank. With a camshaft change it should produce the results your looking for. This platform will also handle a 4.500 stroke crank without clearancing the block. We have one in for rebuild currently this is why it has come to mind. Food for thought!
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2019 Circle H 408 Windsor DD Sig Series 74"
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec
miata
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by miata »

hdsadey wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:53 pm
It just occurred to me that an 8.1 Vortec might fit your bill. Big cubic inch displacement, built for towing applications, factory fuel injection, throttle by wire throttle body, timing computer set with reluctor wheel on crank. With a camshaft change it should produce the results your looking for. This platform will also handle a 4.500 stroke crank without clearancing the block. We have one in for rebuild currently this is why it has come to mind. Food for thought!
Definitely. You are on a growing list of people who have suggested a new 8 liter. It has a lot of upsides
SWAMPHUNTER45
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 »

Honestly if your giving up on the Cadillac platform and going in a new direction for your special use. I would ponder a aircraft engine modified to use pump gas.
miata
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by miata »

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:15 am
Honestly if your giving up on the Cadillac platform and going in a new direction for your special use. I would ponder a aircraft engine modified to use pump gas.
I need too many

If I can find a reasonable replacement for the cadillac, I will do that. If I cannot, then two more isn't tough. I've worked through all the quirks now. I can name every bolt that can become a disaster.
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OneBFC
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by OneBFC »

I mean, if you are stuck on DD and reliability with cost secondary....

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?ma ... ype=engine

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycoming_IO-720

Reduce timing and you still have 50hp+ headroom to spare when running on pump gas. Or heck, just run the 100LL and be 100+ hp in reserve.

TBO should be what.....3000+ hours? AC guys here know this way better than I do.

Think about marine engines. Run at 4000 to 5000 RPM all day long for 3000 hours when taken care of. A LS will make 300hp at 4000 rpm in its sleep and be totally happy.

How many hours do you need these engines to run between overhaul / failure? Figure that out and apply that to all your engine options to come up with your best $ option.

I think you need to put some more boundary conditions on your requirements before doing anything else.
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,85+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 »

Tech point:

The last thing I would ever do is to run 100LL Aviation fuel in a vintage Cadillac engine at a concentration above 20-25%.

On more than one occasion Mr Branch called to me the shop to witness damage to exhaust ports on engines in which LL100 had been run in high concentration.

We are no metallurgists but what we discovered was what appeared to be an abrasive or erosive reaction in the port. On one the ports were eaten entirely through.

He would comment and joke that running pure AV fuel in a Cadillac creates “self porting heads” !

His vast testing at the drag strip also found concentrations above 25% decreased performance.

Some where I may have a pic to share but it is deep in the cloud.

If you have an enhanced octane requirement you can not beat using Sunoco Standard (110 octane) as a kicker. Sunoco actually recommends this fuel for blending where catalytic converters are not utilized.
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 »

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:42 am
Tech point:

The last thing I would ever do is to run 100LL Aviation fuel in a vintage Cadillac engine at a concentration above 20-25%.

On more than one occasion Mr Branch called me over to the shop to witness damage to exhaust ports on engines in which LL100 had been run in high concentration.

We are no metallurgists, but what we discovered appeared to be an abrasive or erosive reaction in the port. On one the ports I observed where it was eaten entirely through.

Mr Branch would comment and joke that running pure AV fuel in a Cadillac creates “self porting heads” !

His vast testing at the drag strip also found concentrations above 25% decreased performance.

Some where I may have a pic to share but it is deep in the cloud.

If you have an enhanced octane requirement you can not beat using Sunoco Standard (110 octane) as a kicker. Sunoco actually recommends this fuel for blending where catalytic converters are not utilized.
miata
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by miata »

ok guys,

I will be putting together a detailed list of requirements.

I will be back soon.
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by miata »

Alright guys. New stuff.

I got a few sets of the Harland Sharp- solid rocker shaft, adjustable roller rockers.

I don't particularly like what I see, but I'm not a pro and want some others to chime in.

Typical installation (as I know it) is:

1. Square geometry (90°), trunion/roller line is perpendicular to the valve stem at 1/2 valve lift.

2. Use pushrods that work with this geometry OR shim the assembly up to attain the 90°.
20210629_115402.jpg
So when I do this, my bearing is definitely not centered. The picture makes it look like a funny angle, but its 90

Question- without lateral adjustment, how the hell do I get this to line up?

I can force it to center if I don't care about the 90 but then all the rules the pros say to follow, are out the window.

I had a local race engine builder (he fully admitted he is not a cadillac pro) take a look. He said unless the valve stems were cut wildly different than oem, then it looks like they are parts from another engine that are "close enough " for some people.

What do you guys think?
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 »

All my shaft engines have required custom pushrods. Every one of them. Have also seen based on valves used that pushrods will be different for intake and exhaust.

It is not uncommon also to shim to perfect geometry. Some shaft systems use a rocker off a Ford 428 Cobra Jet engine.

Even the best shaft system made (T&D) sends shims with their shafts.

Mr Branch would use washers when a system did not fit perfect. Ironically the T&D systems we used have never needed shims.

There is an adjustable push rod that gets inserted it screws in and out to take the measurement for custom push rods.

He liked to get my pushrods for the roller builds from CompCams as they were thick wall and heat treated.
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by miata »

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm
All my shaft engines have required custom pushrods. Every one of them. Have also seen based on valves used that pushrods will be different for intake and exhaust.

It is not uncommon also to shim to perfect geometry. Some shaft systems use a rocker off a Ford 428 Cobra Jet engine.

Even the best shaft system made (T&D) sends shims with their shafts.

Mr Branch would use washers when a system did not fit perfect. Ironically the T&D systems we used have never needed shims.

There is an adjustable push rod that gets inserted it screws in and out to take the measurement for custom push rods.

He liked to get my pushrods for the roller builds from CompCams as they were thick wall and heat treated.

Maybe I was unclear on some things, ill elaborate as best I can
I don't really know what I am doing, so these are all assumptions on my end.

1. I understand the need for custom pushrods.
2. pushrod length is determined by rocker geometry, not the other way around.
3. leave the pushrods out of the equation- I cannot get good geometry without them anyway.
4. i dont mind shimming, thats not the issue.
5. shimming does not fix the fact that when at 1/2 lift and the lifter is 90 deg to valve, the roller tip over reaches the valve tip.
6. there is no lateral adjustment to fix #5.

Am I missing something here? Am I way off base? Am I misunderstanding something important?
Last edited by miata on Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Slidin Gator
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by Slidin Gator »

miata wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:16 pm
6. there is no lateral adjustment to fix #5.

Am I missing something here? Am I way off base?
You are missing the fact that this ain't none of our jobs, we point and shoot. Make things obvious please, I had to read your post a few times to figure out the complaint, is this it?

Image
I still think I-10 is the Mason Dixon line.
2013 Mike Stossel Boats, 13' x 7' deck over, IO-540, 74" NGQ less winglets.
SWAMPHUNTER45
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Re: An alternative to cadillac

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 »

Kind of hard for anyone who is not there to really see what ur seeing.

If your out of spec is left to right off crank centerline then shims should resolve.

If it is a forward to back (fore you aft) have not seen that

Not sure what you bought but none of my systems are HS

T&D
FE Max
VTR

Anyway.

Good luck with it
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