New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

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strokin05ct
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby strokin05ct » Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:31 pm

I belie be there are reasons as to hey both terry and Dave Simpson have had issues... And it isn't "ecotecs can't hang or last". Both are using completely different platforms. Russ how many issues have you had? My good buddy just picked up a water thunder with 102 hrs on it and it blew a hole through the side of block after the 3rd ride. Things happen! Also, have towed 2 gso480 boats in myself.

Regardless, this post was intended for someone to receive information not for people to bash ecos or av or ls. Each variant of engine can perform outstanding on an airboat application. Chest pounder tony knows everything there ever was to know about everything we all know that. :slap: if people aren't going to help the people asking the questions by providing facts not opinions then maybe they should browse to a post more suited to their taste :salute:
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"she gone!"
GM 2.0 LHU Turbo Ecotec, stock engine, 78" whisper ex 3 blade
06 Hamant 13'

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby strokin05ct » Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:34 pm

:proud: chuck your the man and bless you and your hard work in this air boating community

chuckitt@earthlink.net wrote:I am sorry, I though if you were going to compare HP and Torque, you would also compare weight. Add a 100 lbs in the back of a boat makes it take more HP to get it on plane and keep it there. I also though cost to operate would be a facture. Guess not.
Thanks, Chuck
Cody
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby jwoodl01 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:46 pm

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby OneBFC » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:35 pm

Nothing looks out of place with the published data from those disel engines. What part strikes you as off?

Not trying to drag anything out, just don't see anything unexpected or out of place there.
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby WaterWalker » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:47 pm

Russ

“We are your propeller blades speaking”

You are very fortunate to have had Plum & Andrew build us as short cast Maximus blades for you. Knowing and liking both yourself and the Eco-tech engines, (Plum likes all engines) he added numerous micro-sensors under our skins that are able to detect the engine type that is supplying rotational horsepower to us through the prop shaft and propeller hub. These sensors coupled to added nano-circuit central processing Units (CPUs) give us our heart and spirit, our AI and a will to please a deserving rider.

Like a big horse with a great spirit that liked its rider (say John Wayne) and had a will to run, would run its heart out for the Duke.

When we sense the power we need coming from our Eco-tech engine and knowing the love that you have for our engine and us we are just thrilled to give you our all.

Please don’t compare us, our engine or yourself to those other guys with their props and engines that can’t tell the difference. (They just don’t seem to know that torque in lbs. ft. times RPM divided by the constant 5252, equals rotational horsepower and can’t match it all up). We needed about 800 lbs. ft. delivered constantly at about 2300 RPM which represented about 350 or more HP. We’re happy, so we push like hell for you.

Regards,
Your three prop blades.
Working to make airboating better

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby jwoodl01 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:53 pm

As shown in the first link for example, the 2015 6.7 inline 6 is listed at 385 HP. It makes that at 2800 rpms. By calculation, that is 722 ft lbs of torque.

5252×385÷2800= 722

They have the engines torque listed at 865 ft lbs. That's a difference of 143 ft lbs. That's roughly an additional 20 percent.
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby OneBFC » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:57 pm

Thanks David :) The physics is apparent to me of course.

I am just trying to have a healthy discussion and maintain an open mind / attitude for other points of view.

I have learned many a thing in the past from unexpected sources. As I now tell my young children, "I am too old to know everything." ie: I don't know it all.

I hope we can continue to discuss here amicably.
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,70+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby OneBFC » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:00 pm

Well, the 865ftlbs is at a lower RPM. Plug the torque at the rated RPM into the formula, it will calculate the hp at that RPM.

Agree?

jwoodl01 wrote:As shown in the first link for example, the 2015 6.7 inline 6 is listed at 385 HP. It makes that at 2800 rpms. By calculation, that is 722 ft lbs of torque.

5252×385÷2800= 722

They have the engines torque listed at 865 ft lbs. That's a difference of 143 ft lbs. That's roughly an additional 20 percent.
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,70+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby Bdriller » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:06 pm

OneBFC wrote:Tony I know you are difficult to convince. I am just providing the math. The calculations are correct and based off of data that is well established.

The 400hp Ecotec you refer to is mine I assume. Perhaps the one Terri built. While prop diameter is important, it doesn't give a clear picture of what an engine produces. I run a 76" 3 blade maximus because i cant fit more. Dave Simpson runs a 79" 4 blade whirlwind, loudmouse runs a 80" NGR. All Ecotec boats.

Farmboy, Kevin, swings a 74" 3blad R on his GSO480 And that boat runs super strong. Others run 80" or more. So I think the platforms compare favorably.

Blade diameter and pitch can be adjusted to meet performance goals on a given boat.

What matters is HP in the end. gear ratios equalize the available torque and prop shafts speeds.

nothing wrong with skepticism, just stating facts.

so are you trying to tell us that the guys who own these boats know more about what prop theyre swinging than tony?? I cant buy that!!

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby jwoodl01 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:46 pm

Just a couple things and I will let this go.

1. Your chart represented max ft lbs produced by the Eco while it only represented a mathematical TQ at the rated RPM of 3400 for the GSO.

2. Have you ever seen a dyno sheet displaying the GSO's HP and TQ curve. I have not. I'd imagine, like a diesel engine it's max TQ is at a much lower RPM and would begin to fall substantially as rpms increased to 3400. Dunno? See below.

3. And lastly, only because this conversation along with Mr. Wines poem is starting to hurt my head, HOW DOES AN ENGINE THAT MAKES A SUPPOSED 300 FT LBS OF TQ WITH NEARLY HALF THE REDUCTION SWING SUCH A PROP?

Thanks
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby gyrocopter582 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:58 pm

Blah, blah, blah. Russ, was it 7 or 8 men standing on the deck of your heavy ass deck over barge,
when you took them for a ride from a dead stop on light brown dry grass?
Not to mention it will do it for hours on end without an increase in engine temperature,
on WalMart gas, with parts available on every street corner. On the other hand, I have a neighbor
who restores and drives Model A's.... :dontknow:
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby CarMotorBarge » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:13 pm

Actually it was sticky green grass at Polluted Waters. I was one of the fat azzes on the boat. Mike, you crack me up. You work on airplane engines for a living, but want to drive an EcoTurd for an airboat. 8)
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby CarMotorBarge » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:20 pm

jwoodl01 wrote:Just a couple things and I will let this go.

1. Your chart represented max ft lbs produced by the Eco while it only represented a mathematical TQ at the rated RPM of 3400 for the GSO.

2. Have you ever seen a dyno sheet displaying the GSO's HP and TQ curve. I have not. I'd imagine, like a diesel engine it's max TQ is at a much lower RPM and would begin to fall substantially as rpms increased to 3400. Dunno? See below.

3. And lastly, only because this conversation along with Mr. Wines poem is starting to hurt my head, HOW DOES AN ENGINE THAT MAKES A SUPPOSED 300 FT LBS OF TQ WITH NEARLY HALF THE REDUCTION SWING SUCH A PROP?

Thanks


jwood,

The GSO is making 533 ft lbs of torque and the EcoTurd is only making 306 ft lbs of torque. That is why the GSO needs less gear to turn the same prop as an EcoTurd.
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby dshaw94 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:23 pm

jwoodl01 wrote:Chuck, not once was it mentioned where the GSO was more fuel efficient or a lighter power plant option than the Ecotec. That's a no brainer.

There's no doubt the little engines are proving to be great engine options. All I'm saying, is the torque math does not seem to represent the GSO fairly.

What is questioned is how engine A is making 300 ft lbs more, with almost 2X the reduction, and turns props equal to or less than that of the under powered engine B.

On a side note Russ, regarding calculating torque, how do the 3 major light duty diesels publish engine torque specs that are higher than the torque formula would represent?



The reason it appears the torque rpm horsepower formula doesn't add up with the 3 majors diesels or any published stats for that matter is due to one simple fact. Max horsepower and max torque occur at different rpms. When you apply the formula youre assuming the maximum torque is still present at the rpm published for maximum horsepower which as we know from the decay in the torque curve is a false assumption.

Further more the reason horsepower is the published unit for an engines ability to do work rather than torque is, because it takes both factors required to do work into account, force and distance. In terms of rotational work, torque and rpm. Force with no movement accomplishes no work, conversely movement with no force accomplishes no work. Both torque and rpm are required to do work, and both are equally important.
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby CarMotorBarge » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:25 pm

DuckNutt wrote:I'm taking my time researching all of the Eco's. I'm leaning to the 2.4 because it's the one I've found thats pushing the HP envelope 300+ and the package is not bad on price and comes with the ECM. I don't want to stir the pot at all, my preference for trucks is Ford. "Still driving a 72 F250 Sport Custom 4x4 with a 390, but for this build it seems to me that GM 2.4 is landing where I want to be on price, HP, and ease of fab.


Have you looked into the LFX EcoTurd? It is a 3.6 NA engine with direct injection making 323 HSP. The max RPMs is 7200 and the motor builds HSP all the way to 7000 RPMs. Also I saw online that Custom Built Motors (CBM) is selling a complete LLT for $6K. This is an earlier version of the LFX that might make sense to look at. CBM might be willing to do an LFX. Personally, I am not a fan of the turbos. Don't like the lag and it is something else to break.
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby jwoodl01 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:29 pm

Gyro, I'll take the blah, blah, blah as an indication of your little undies beginning to wad up...

7 guys in Russ's boat running light brown grass does not surprise me one bit. I'm sure he could run with a few more, as I have ran with a similar load with little motor stress and plenty left on the plate rpm wise other than initial ground break and I only have an IO520. Bring me more, I'll pack her to the gills till she won't go no more.

Not ALL boat performance is dictated by the power your engine produces. As you should know, it's all about power to weight, and a boat that has been rigged and set up right.

IDK, the model A comment, along with others you've made before, lead me to believe that you think all airboats should be powered by an Ecotec and that anything less is inferior.
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby fl cracker » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:45 pm

Gyro, will yours in particular do what Russ's boat will do stated above? Let's not forget to compare apples to apples . Russ's has stated in the past that he has a bit of money in his to get to that performance level . IMO it cant be compared to a 8 to 10k direct drive A/C motor. For god sakes it has a gearbox on it, of coarse it's going to turn more prop which is going to produce more thrust. Like Iv said Many times in the past they are impressive for a small package but the last few Iv seen on the lake were either not running or not running good.
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby OneBFC » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:29 pm

We are all so passionate about our hobby. A good thing for sure. I take no sides in this, regardless of what it may appear like. I will run any engine that makes performance sense to me. I just evaluate them all on the same performance metrics.

I stipulate AC engine hp is no different than hp generated by any other engine.

Very interested to see something that argues against that.

Lastly, at the lower RPM where the GSO is making more torque than at 3400, that torque doesn't produce more thrust. It produces more snap. The prop doesn't need any power to spin at low RPM. Excess power not required to spin the prop goes to accelerating to a higher rpm until everything balances out at engine stall. This is why "area under the curve" is critical. Which, btw, turbo engines Excell at.


good conversation so far!
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,70+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby 90chevy396 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:23 pm

All of the complaining about comparing apples to apples is a mess :banghead: . you can't compare different engines designed for different applications in an airboat, all you can do is see if the combo you want to use will work. No matter how you look at it a car engine is designed to be run at a higher rpm with a gear reduction in a vehicle. and aircraft engine is designed to run at a low rpm in a direct drive scenario. in reality only aircrafts can compare to each other and car engines can compare to each other, every other comparison is just a matter of what works best together.

so IMHO if you can afford to build an ecotec do so and enjoy the hell out of it. right now I am running a car engine direct drive which can be compared to aircraft engine applications because I am trying to run direct drive yes it works but no it wont give the same results as an aircraft engine.

then again what does my opinion matter I have less in my whole boat than any others that are trying to argue have in just their engine and prop combination :rebel:
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby AntiqueFarmEquipment » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:36 am

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. Ducknutt are you the owner of the exited insee driving down the road in Micco? I just saw it drive by again this AM and was curious as I believe you live a few lots south of me. I'd be interested in paying for some fuel for a ride as I'm showing some interest in one of these for the Fam potentially.
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby chuckitt@earthlink.net » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:57 pm

1. I would use a 2.55 OX-Box. Call Brain at 863-581-9710. ( I have the adaptors for $ 375.00. 352-330-1015 )
2. 3 Blade 78 inch Water Walker Maximus.
3. The 14 will be more agile and better in the turns.

Chuck


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