Looks Like I'ma gonna be a Caddy Guy - Now What? Stroker L92 LS3 Build

[Slidin Gator]

For Item #2, the dimensions of the thermostat changed. My core here is a 2009 L92 from an Escalade (hence the title of the thread). The core used the 2009 and up thermostat system. The primary difference in the water pump is the depth to the check/relief valve mating surface. The area shown is the SUCTION side of the water pump. Below the surface being measured is the OUTLET side of the cooling system. The check/relief opens during warm up to recirculate and the relief valve spring ultimately regulates pressure/flow into the engine.

Note that the car heater supply and return ports are shown at the top of the view. One YouTube video I watched when researching steam ports had a guy with a loop between the two, effectively defeating the check valve. When I saw this I moved on, that's not a guy I want to listen to. I plan to plug the heater ports individually, DO NOT loop them like a SBC setup.




On the 2009 and later water pumps the measurement is about:



On my 2008 and earlier setup I come up with:



Below is a comparison of the thermostats, the one on the left is the newer 2009+ setup. The right side one is the New 2008 and earlier 160 degree thermostat I am using. I have no idea why this was changed, but the newer type thermostat does appear to have a higher pressure relief valve setup??

Here is a concept to consider (for us old school SBC folks), the opening pressure of the check/relief valve controls how much pressure/flow actually runs through the radiator vs. being re-circulated (hot) through the engine. Going to a "High Volume" water pump can waste power and actually make heat unless the radiator and return plumbing can support with minimal pressure drop.

 

[Slidin Gator]

The 3rd difference is the thermostat diameter and housing. The 2008 and earlier housings have a bolt spacing of 76 mm and a thermostat pocket diameter of:




The newer 2009 and up have a bolt spacing of 78 mm and a housing diameter of:

 

[Slidin Gator]

After writing all of that down I started wondering if GM made the thermostat changes to increase water pressure in the block to add flow while taking the hit on some pump cavitation during warm up. The 2009 and up thermostat certainly seems to have a stronger spring on the relief. I'm pretty sure they were using the 2-port steam port on the 2008 and prior, but...

Damit, now I got to look into that

 

[Slidin Gator]

Fuel rail update, got them and injectors installed. Saturday I went down a rabbit hole, kept fitting the rails and injectors up and decided I needed to make custom brackets. So I spent half of Saturday cutting up some of the brackets in the fuel rail kit and welding them back just right.




Last night I went for final install, but this time I used the injector clips that I didn't bother with for fit up. It turns out the clips keep the injectors from seating all the way into the fuel rails and effectively raise the fuel rails. At least at this point I could add washers to shim, but luckily I did not cut up the Group "D" brackets, because they fit perfect! Added my 1/2" AN fuel line adapters and another problem solved.

As a side note, the porting from the rail into each injector is significantly larger than the OEM rails. I was worried that would be a restriction on the OEM rails with E85, shouldn't be an issue now.







I don't see any Copyright on the fuel rail instructions, so here they are.

 

[Slidin Gator]

So one more lesson learned on the cooling system. The heads are ported with a special port for the coolant temp sensor. It's on the balancer end on the driver (Port) side of the engine and on the bellhousing end on the passenger (Stbd) side. It turns out that the thread is a bastard, even in metric. I tried every screw I could come up with to make a plug for the bellhousing end, 2 trips to the hardware store included.

The thread is an M12-1.5. That comes up in my machinary's handbook as a special lug nut thread. So I guess I could make a plug for the stern port with a wheel lug, I just went to the engine shop and asked for one laying around (like the one that came out of my heads...).

If you don't want to get stuck with adapters or the stock sensor, make sure to tap the heads when they are off.

 

[Slidin Gator]

After writing all of that down I started wondering if GM made the thermostat changes to increase water pressure in the block to add flow while taking the hit on some pump cavitation during warm up. The 2009 and up thermostat certainly seems to have a stronger spring on the relief. I'm pretty sure they were using the 2-port steam port on the 2008 and prior, but...

Damit, now I got to look into that

Damn Rick McC and the thumbs up, I had to follow through.

The OLD 2008 and prior setup has a good bit of travel on the check/relief spring after seating. It also includes small holes that always allow some re-circulation.








The newer 2009+ setup shown below with the stiffer spring sits just slightly closed. This looks more like a minor tweak than anything. I think it's time to quit over thinking and start modifying and painting these parts and move on to ignition.

 

[Slidin Gator]

Time to move on to ignition coil install, wiring and testing. This video explains it best for me, simple, simple, the more ground the better in my book.

 

[One Eyed Gator]

Sorry not Lycoming grey but close lol
-It is actually Lift-truck grey by Maxx-Kote from Tifco industries. It is an industrial paint has a decent temp rating and is for corrosive enviroments.

The water neck I used is from a CTSV Dorman part 902-2081 where the neck is at 9:00

 

[SWI_Don]

The M12x1.5 is a standard for a metric SAE ORB standard. It is ISO 6149-1. Link below.

https://www.goodyearrubberproducts.com/files/Parker/ParkerTubeCatalog4300/Parker%20Tube%20Catalog%204300examin1.Page476.pdf

 

[Slidin Gator]

The M12x1.5 is a standard for a metric SAE ORB standard. It is ISO 6149-1. Link below.

https://www.goodyearrubberproducts.com/files/Parker/ParkerTubeCatalog4300/Parker%20Tube%20Catalog%204300examin1.Page476.pdf

Great Info SWI! Thanks for the input!

 

[FISHSTICKER]

You been busy old man. All I have to offer is buy a vacuum coolant fill kit. Best money I ever spent. Never leaves a trapped air pocket. My radiator is low so I installed a valve on the radiator drain that I use to suck the coolant into the system from the lowest point. Perfection.

 

[Slidin Gator]

You been busy old man. All I have to offer is buy a vacuum coolant fill kit. Best money I ever spent. Never leaves a trapped air pocket. My radiator is low so I installed a valve on the radiator drain that I use to suck the coolant into the system from the lowest point. Perfection.

Fish,

What is the thermostat setup on your 4 bangers? Is it old school thermostat between the pump and block or LS style with the thermostat on the pump inlet/suction?

10-4 on the vacuum coolant fill setup, that's on my list when I get to rigging setup for sure.

 

[FISHSTICKER]

The return line from the radiator actually connects to the thermostat housing. The pump has to suck the water past the thermostat. There is a bypass coolant line from the coolant exit at the back of the head to keep from starving the water pump and allow re-circulation on warm up. Works great. Horrible system for getting all the air out. That vacuum system makes it a breeze though.

 

[Slidin Gator]

Dyno day was Saturday, cut to the chase, 500+ ft-Lbs from 3-6K rpm.

The E85 was actually E63, which allowed for 2 degrees of advance vs. 93. Both of these graphs are with no filter on the 92 mm throttle body.

More info coming, but adding a K&N with Precharger Sock added 10-15 ft-lbs to 4,500. Torque was down ~5 ft-lbs by 5,500 with the air filter vs. nothing.

The conclusion is to forget messing with ethanol on this engine and run the K&N, the initial goals are well met on 93 pump gas.

 

[Slidin Gator]

Open Throttle body in Black, K&N in Red, both on E63.

Yep, I'ma gonna keep the K&N filters on my stuff. Wish I had tried throwing Cattail Cotton at the air filter to see if she lit up a bit more

 

[Slidin Gator]

Here is how we broke this engine in, drive it like we stole it.

 

[Slidin Gator]

Knowing how much this crowd loves graphs, here I go again

I found a representative L92/416 build on Motor Trend. They used all the good hotrod parts and built the same engine. My plan beats their plan to 5K by a yard, their plan wins out to 6,500 by a nose.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/stroking-a-416-inch-ls3-engine/

I plot 4 different torque curves:

Red = K&N on E63
Blue = No K&N on 93
Orange = No K&N on E63
Green = Motor Trend 416 reference

Ethanol fuel made more power at the big end where timing advance matters more. But in the range of interest (to 5,500), it was not significant, i.e. she didn't want more timing without more air (and fuel).

Given higher fuel consumption E85 does not seem to make sense on my rig. But with boost/nitrous, E85 allows you to keep the timing in where the engine like it. Just today I heard the kids down the block fire up the twin turbo LS they been building for a few years. I gave them 100 gallons of ethanol last year.

Side note, the lawn mower is well past worn out, she eats 50W aviation oil, 1 quart per area. That's not a big issue, keep feeding, but the carb float is stuck and the damn thing is flooding, running pig rich. This morning I decided I did not want to work on the lawn mower, I just wanted to mow. So I filled it with left over E63 from the dyno run and she mowed the lawn on power as long as I kept a load on her. Hell, for the next few gallons the stuff is free to me (it was $3.11 / gal).

The K&N made 15 ft lbs at the low end and was over 10 ft-lbs to 4,300. The K&N was -4 ft-lbs at 5,500. I am thinking the K&N basically increases the intake length, keeps all them air molecules in line. Regardless, anyone tells you to take the air filter off to make more power better have some data.

The truck intake is a winner! It made ~80 ft-lbs at the cruise end vs. the Motor Trend hot rod intake and ran out to 5,000 before barely lagging at 5,500.

Talking to the builder (J&J Balancing) I said the engine met expectations on the nose. What would it take to move the torque curve to the left 500 RPM? Less cam, less LSA? He said this is the cam they run in the LS airboat engines, the engine is happy here, less cam and tuning is more difficult, cylinder temps are higher blah blah blah, she's gonna blow you away on performance as is (can't argue)!

With this size engine his suggestion would be smaller heads, aka a cathedral port 416 stroker. I have no intention of building such a thing right now. I need to build me a boat for this thing!

 

[Slidin Gator]

Some information for future reference. I just got off the phone with Holley support, and I told them I would be posting the results of my testing and their feedback online. So here is my review of Holley fuel injectors.

This weekend we tested 2 engines running the Dominator system and Holley fuel injectors. We started with the following:

LS 416 using 8x Holley 522-768XFM, Purchased July 22, 2022
Ford 363 using 8x Holley 522-668, Purchased June 3, 2023

Both of these injector sets are outside the 90-day warranty period. Both of these injector sets were unused until we hit the dyno Saturday.

The LS engine initially cranked on 2 cylinders, after working them from the laptop/ECU we got 2 more working. The XFM designation means this is supposed to be a flow matched set that have been tested. We pulled them and replaced with a set of matched flow, tested Bosh injectors from the Fuel Injector Clinic in Hobe Sound. They worked great per all the info posted.

After the testing I got all 8 LS injectors working with some good finger flicks and sparking on a battery, but I have no interest in floating in the middle of the lake while I'm in the cage flicking injectors!

On the Ford we had a few issues that are being investigated. As part of the investigation, we tested the 522-668 injectors and found that they matched up at 12% variation! Per Holley tech, the spec for those particular injectors is 12% variation and a matched set would be 3%, so no warranty claim. Those injectors are getting replaced with TBD.

Holley said the 2-year-old LS injectors were too old to discuss. The 11-month-old ford set could be warrantied, but apparently, they are within spec, so no doing. We will be getting a new set of flow matched injectors for this engine too, not from Holley.

The Dominator system has worked as advertised, no complaints, but don't buy your injectors from Holley. Do the research, get the good ones and purchase a matched/tested set from a reliable aftermarket source.

 

[Slidin Gator]

Not the Airboat Engine, but here is what my tuner (Justin @ Prostuning) came up with from a flow test on the Ford EV1 injectors. That's within spec according to Holley.

 

[Deano]

Some information for future reference. . . . We will be getting a new set of flow matched injectors for this engine too, not from Holley.

The Dominator system has worked as advertised, no complaints, but don't buy your injectors from Holley. Do the research, get the good ones and purchase a matched/tested set from a reliable aftermarket source.

While it goes without saying . . .
I'm sure I'm not the only one that appreciates your documenting your exploits along the way and pointing out which paths are better left, not taken. Don't know when I might use some or all of this info, but in any case, Thanks in advance!